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Tulpa Discussion / tulpa-discussion
The channel for discussion strictly on the topic of tulpas. Take off-topic discussion to #lounge Forum's Tulpa Discussion Board: https://community.tulpa.info/forum/4-general-discussion/
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with me so far?
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Ruethus the Silver Sorceror 6/20/2018 6:11 PM
I am
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Abvieon {Alex} 6/20/2018 6:11 PM
If that is what you see consciousness as, what do you call the "thing" in the mind that observes and experiences?
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Wait, isn't it true that what one is conscious of is necessarily limited to what one is aware of?
6:12 PM
I thought that was consciousness. The things you're aware of internally. You're conscious, you're aware.
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>internally
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Ruethus the Silver Sorceror 6/20/2018 6:13 PM
People don't necessarily always use the same definitions for the same words
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okay so
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Well everything's internal, even what you think is external.
6:13 PM
So it's cheating to say that, I realize.
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@Abvieon {Alex} I don't conceive of things in that way. There's nothing in the mind that observes and experiences because my body is conscious. I am my body and only my body because the body includes all biochemical processes that give rise to "thought"
6:14 PM
@Jas nothing is internal, everything is biochemical.
6:14 PM
what I think is physical, just uninterpretable to other humans because they can't "read" biochemical processes.
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Sure? I mean, as far as we can care, but when I mean "internal" I mean just the existence of perception takes place in more of an abstract signal internal to what is normally considered the brain.
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Ruethus the Silver Sorceror 6/20/2018 6:15 PM
This is the fun of real scientific research right here
6:15 PM
Not everyone uses the same base assumptions
6:16 PM
And they're not necessarily entirely conflicting, either
6:16 PM
Or even conflicting at all
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Signal, set of signals, chaotic yet orderly patterns of electrical pulses, and all the fun neurotransmitters, those all cooperate to produce everything that a person experiences
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All right so I will say @Jas that some people think of consciousness as being the set of phenomena of which one is aware?
6:16 PM
I specifically outlined how I was using the word, though.
6:16 PM
To talk about the state of being conscious.
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That's the state of being aware, right? I'm just trying to clarify.
6:17 PM
um
6:18 PM
It's more than just being aware.
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[Well, we just disagree with what we are. Assuming an overarching consciousness I am not this consciousness. I am the subset software that defines me or the mind.]
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I did read what you said and I'm trying to process it in a more meaningful sense. (edited)
6:18 PM
Okay, that's good enough
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I know, I'm trying to think of how to best explicate what I mean.
6:18 PM
Like, the state of being conscious involves your unaware processes, too.
6:18 PM
Like reflexes, breathing, etc.
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One breathes when uncons- okay, I think I need more clarification
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If you want, it's actually arguable to say that the state of being conscious is "the state of being alive"
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You're not using the word in those terms.
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[Mm, things the body does that don't define me as a being in my eyes. Just actions of the body I inhabit.]
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jas what are you on about
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You mean something different and the word "unconscious" doesn't apply, right? (edited)
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no, i mean that all living things "experience phenomena" to differing levels of complexity.
6:20 PM
And that experiencing phenomena is consciousness.
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Right, but all I need to know is that "unconscious" to you doesn't mean one is literally lacking "consciousness" in terms of how you are using it, right? That way, breathing, unconscious tasks, are all considered in the scope of consciousness.
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Consciousness includes the "conscious/unconscious" dichotomy.
6:23 PM
@Jas that help? (edited)
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Not really. I only wish to know what the rule is with your use of the world.
6:24 PM
A rock is unconscious. A dead body is unconscious. An unconscious person is unconscious
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a rock does not exhibit consciousness, a dead body does not exhibit consciousness, an unconscious person exhibits severely reduced consciousness.
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I cannot rectify my current linguistic understanding with how you are using the word and all I wish to know is that the rule doesn't apply.
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i need a new word other than consciousness but I haven't decided on one and this makes the most immediate sense to me.
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Okay, that's good. You mean unconscious as a word to apply to things which could otherwise be conscious in a different physical state, right? Like they would wake up, hopefully.
6:25 PM
I'm fine with that, thank you. I can better understand what you mean now.
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[Qualia? Qualianess?]
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qualia doesn't mean that
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Sorry for interrupting, I was just trying to understand what was being said.
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qualia specifically talks about the thingness of things.
6:26 PM
anyways, np jas
6:27 PM
So!
6:27 PM
Bridging this conception of consciousness to tulpas has been difficult for me.
6:28 PM
I've settled on delineating between host and tulpas by way of "identity" rather than by way of any framing related to consciousness.
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Beings that exhibit consciousness can exhibit identity/identities.
6:28 PM
Creating a tulpa is cultivating an identity experiencable by another identity.
6:28 PM
Which includes the host's identity.
6:29 PM
Let me find my visual aid.
6:30 PM
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[Of course that brings the problem of a singlet being able to have multiple identities without them being experientially different beings. Since there is a difference between a singlets different "identity" and a tulpa in that regard.]
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This is the illusory dome of saint ignatius's basilica in rome italy
6:30 PM
it's a flat circle that is painted to look like an actual dome.
6:31 PM
The painting is to "identity" whereas the physical circle on which it's painted is the "body exhibiting consciousness"
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Silina, I would argue that is mutually exclusive to the singlet, as in the general case a person's core sense of "identity" is the things they themselves cannot violate without a sensation of discomfort associated with being 'not themselves'
6:33 PM
If a person truly exhibits multiple identities, they wouldn't be a singlet. If they exhibit what appear to be multiple identities while claiming singlethood, then the core of the person is preserved across identities and simply means the person's identity is flexible enough to vary wildly depending on desires or the situation.
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I don't think someone acting different constitutes them having a different identity.
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[The identity when working, when socialising ect Being as if different people but still associating it to 1 being.]
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If I act one way around some people and another around others, I'm still me regardless. Both sets of behaviors refer back to a single identity.
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I would identify those differences as context personalities. The core is preserved, but the context demands different behavior for optimal results.
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[It's not just acting. It's feeling/experiencing as if you are a different person. But still associating it to 1]
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The core is illusory, regardless.
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Ruethus the Silver Sorceror 6/20/2018 6:34 PM
I like that phrasing, Jas
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Identity is at best a fuzzy illusion that makes sense to us.
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Abvieon {Alex} 6/20/2018 6:34 PM
One person can have multiple "identities", or different mindsets - for example, most people act differently around different people, sometimes to the point of seeming like completely different people in different situations. Still, this is vastly different from the experience of having a tulpa, in which a person can talk to a voice in their head that exists simultaneously alongside them
6:35 PM
y'all are definitely not grasping what I mean by identity
6:35 PM
i need to figure out how to fix this
6:35 PM
i could also just be misunderstanding y'all
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I know what you mean. I was made in the context of a host with an identity light enough to serve vastly different contexts, although he was very conscious of this in a way that probably indicates he isn't socialized well.
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[You pretty much mean with identity what we mean with entity/person/being. Just a bit more connected to the main consciousness then we accept.]
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Ruethus the Silver Sorceror 6/20/2018 6:35 PM
I understand what you mean, I was responding to Silina's train of conversation (edited)
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I would like to know what you mean.
6:36 PM
Also thank you, @Ruethus the Silver Sorceror
6:37 PM
I think we agree on identity, do we @Mauriby ?
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Yeah, you and ruethus seem to get it
6:37 PM
And I think silina does to some extent but I think they're kinda like
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Even the illusory part. I'm especially happy with that.
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missing the point in using identity rather than entity/person/being
6:37 PM
like
6:37 PM
i'm not meaning the same thing exactly
6:37 PM
that's why i'm using the term identity
6:38 PM
because it is specifically an illusory thing
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[Probably not missing the point as much as disagreeing with it entirely]
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Could you maybe explain what you mean by illusory? I struggle explaining this myself.
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that arises from trying to understand physical phenomena
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